Ti/alloy saddle rails- what are they made of?

Some saddle rails are identified as Ti 316 which is stainless steel as far as I can tell, yet the specs will say titanium or titanium/alloy or hollow titanium. Other rails say "CrN/Ti " and are referred to as titanium alloy but is in reality "titanium finished chrome moly". Quality titanium rails still exist. Has anyone else felt misled by this marketing and looked for clarification? \n

FizikK:IUM RAILS \nK:ium is a fi'zi:k proprietary rail formulation. It's the combination of a particular metal alloy, a specific tubular design and a special finishing process which increases fatigue performance on the rail surface. Fact: 8% weight reduction compared to solid titanium. k:ium features a high strenght-to-weight ratio grade and high corrosion resistance.--Now,that's a lot of information to take in.

Skldmark wrote:FizikK:IUM RAILS K:ium is a fi'zi:k proprietary rail formulation....
Now,that's a lot of information to take in.

And way too many colons. 

A quick online search revealed that CrN/Ti is chromium-nitride coating on titanium. It's designed for high heat and wear conditions, so I'm not sure if there is any specific benefit of this type of coating on a saddle rail.

Again, looking online, chromium is not magnetic below 38C/100F. Interestingly, it becomes magnetic above those temperatures. However, a thin plating on a saddle frame shouldn't show much magnetic attraction. 316 is stainless steel that is magnetic. Based on this, I'd say neither of the saddle frames you're referring to is Ti, regardless of the label. I think I have some saddles with CrN/Ti frames, so I'll check them with a magnet.

I actually don't like to use Ti-framed saddles off-road, as they bend too easily in crashes. I prefer tubular steel for dirt and save the Ti stuff for the pavement.

I've learned from experience - unfortunately - that tubular Ti rails bend more readily than I thought. I've never had any issues with them on the road, but a single endo on the 'cross/gravel bike can trash one.

The most recent one was an E3 (now Kontact) saddle. They're made by Velo, as are most Asian brands and several European brands. When the frame bent, the shell also cracked. Fortunately, I've at least been able to use the Ti tubing to make other useful items.

CrN is chromium nitride; it's a coating that can be applied to other metals, but I don't think you can make anything like a saddle frame from solid CrN, as it's too hard. I doubt that it could be formed into tubes and suspect that it would never bend without breaking, except when applied in a very thin coating. I've never seen anything made from solid chromium, have you?

From Wikipedia: "CrN is used as a coating material for corrosion resistance and in metal forming and plastic moulding applications. CrN is often used on medical implants and tools. CrN is also a valuable component in advanced multicomponent coating systems, such as CrAlN, for hard, wear-resistant applications on cutting tools."

Having cut and machined the rail material in the process of making other bits, I can tell you for certain that they are not steel. They're too light weight (it's easy to tell once they're detached from the saddle) and too difficult to machine to be steel (Ti is notoriously hard to machine). I did test an E3 saddle frame with a very strong rare-earth magnet from a disc drive and they are non-magnetic.

I agree that the CrN/Ti nomenclature is confusing, but I'm convinced that it's Ti. Why they would coat it with CrN (if in-fact, they do), is beyond me. I wonder if they got a killer price on a huge lot of CrN-coated Ti tubing from some cancelled aerospace/military/industrial project or something.

BTW, if you search for "CrN/Ti saddle" on Ebay or Google, you'll get an idea of how widespread Velo saddles are in the market. They're the largest saddle maker in the world.

Look, you can dispute it all you want, but we're talking about Ti, whether you want to believe it or not. You said you've been to their website, so you already know that they only list "Chromoly" and "Titanium" rails and the difference is obvious, even at a glance. For anyone who's interested, go to http://www.velosaddles.com/velo-technology/ and look under "Rail Systems".

Velo private labels saddles for a variety of companies that sell at a variety of prices. Ti rails don't automatically make a saddle expensive, just more somewhat expensive than steel with a comparable shell and cover (I'll bet the difference is all of $5-$10 at the OEM/wholesale level). Bargains on saddles are available everywhere, particularly on private-label products. Hell, I was buying Ti E3 saddles from Nashbar when they closed them out for $30 (the steel/gel versions were $20).

As for the quality, who knows how Velo's rails compare to other Ti rails? Why don't you go buy a bunch of saddles with Ti rails and test them? Then you can actually be the expert that you apparently think you are.

Frankly, I'm tired of explaining this to you and providing you with evidence. I've worked with the material, you haven't. It's Ti. Accept it or not, I really don't care. I've had enough of your trolling.

Over and out.

https://ismseat.com/help/frequently-asked-questions/
CrN/Ti saddle rail - a stainless steel/titanium alloy . Just because...

https://www.rolledalloys.com/technical-resources/blog/why-why-why-316ti-uns-s31635
 316ti- European sourced.

And did you notice what they're called? Stainless alloys are always referred to by their "grade", which in the case of those that contain Ti is "316" or "321", with or without the "Ti" suffix.

CrN is chromium nitride, which is used as a coating for other metals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_nitride
https://www.brycoat.com/surface-engineering/brycoat-pvd-coating-solutions/chromium-nitride-crn-pvd-coating/

Ti is titanium. I think we all agree on that

Neither CrN nor Ti is a form of steel, nor can they be combined to create steel. All forms of steel must contain iron and carbon, or they're not steel.

So, either ISM is using something other than CrN/Ti for saddle rails or the person who wrote that it was a form of stainless steel has no idea what they're talking about.

As I said previously, I have worked with the CrN/Ti Alloy material from Velo saddle rails and it is definitely NOT steel.

Satisfied?

https://us.selleitalia.com/en/technologies/
Selle Italia has a Titanium rail and, one they list as Ti 316 Rail, described only as:
“Rail increased by up to 25% resistance and durability and reduced by 15% weight compared with traditional rails, ø 7 mm.“

First off, they don't claim that this material is titanium. They're using the designation "316" that indicates that it's stainless steel, even if they put "Ti" in the wrong place in the name. It should be "316Ti", not "Ti 316", which is definitely misleading. The small weight reduction (15%) is consistent with what could be achieved using a high-strength steel alloy in a thinner-walled tube compared to their "traditional" steel rails.

In contrast, titanium is half the weight of steel, though in a saddle rail, I would expect the weight savings to be a bit less than 50%.

However, this "Ti316" business has no bearing whatsoever on your assertions about "CrN/Ti" rails, which are much lighter than steel and are clearly titanium.

BTW, notice that they also list a "Manganese Rail", but at least they somewhat awkwardly try to clarify that it's actually a chromium-molybdenum-manganese steel alloy (a type of stainless steel).

Keep digging...eventually you'll realize that you're getting nowhere.

This is how Universal Cycles describes CrN/Ti:

• CrN/Ti Alloy rails-special metal combination with weight similar to titanium, but with a more affordable price.

This is from a response in paceline.forums,I don’t know the source.
  

Kontact

03-07-2012 01:42 AM

---

Frankly, I really don't care about these references, because none of them are definitive. You keep changing back and forth between CrN/Ti and 316 Ti, but it's obvious that they're different materials. Considering the tiny weight difference between 316 Ti and other steels, it's obviously steel. Considering how light CrN/Ti is, it's obviously titanium. While it's true that the nomenclature is confusing and possibly even intentionally deceptive in the case of CrN/Ti, it doesn't change anything.

If you don't want to face facts, I really don't care. This has become nothing but a complete waste of time, as it's obvious that you're going to believe whatever you want, even when it's clearly not true.

I should know better than to get drawn into these stupid debates, so shame on me.

Have nice life!

Yes, CrN/Ti (whatever it is) is different than Ti 316, that is in the first two statements at the top of the thread. The simple point was that they are both commonly referred to (esp in advertisements) as titanium. I simply questioned if that is accurate. That’s all.