Chain talk?

22 replies · 680 views

Pipeliner
129 posts
#1Jun 18, 2021, 3:44 PM
New chain and cassette time for my gravel bike. Running an Ultegra 34 tooth 11 speed cassette and KMC chain now that is shot after 2k miles in the dirt. Ordered a SRAM 11-36 cassette to give a wider ratio on my GRX 2x setup. I’m told you can run one even though the GRX 810 is said to have a 34tooth max.
Is there any real difference in shift quality or durability of bike chains? Does 2000 miles in the dirt seem like too short of chain life and could I get longer service from a better chain? Anyone running a 36t cassette on a GRX 810 2x without issues?
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stu
646 posts
#2Jun 18, 2021, 6:00 PM
2000 miles in dirt seems to me like pretty good chain life.

I haven't used GRX but my Ultegra derailleur (specified 32T max) shifts cogs up to 40T just fine.
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EBG18T
53 posts
#3Jun 19, 2021, 6:46 AMedited
@Pipeliner - it’s hard to say if 2k miles is good or bad without knowing how often it was cleaned, lubed, etc... When you measured the wear how much stretch/wear does it have? If it’s approaching 0.5% then it’s time to replace. I’d rather replace chains more often than paying for cassettes & chainrings.
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zen_
110 posts
#4Jun 19, 2021, 7:36 AM
Seems reasonable if your drivetrain maintenance was normal, although you would get a lot more miles from everything (chain, cassette, rings) using wax if wear & tear is a major concern. I have cheap PC-1110 chains over 3K that are not even close to 0.5% wear yet.

One thing for sure right now that anyone buying chains needs to look out for is the epidemic of counterfeit Shimano and KMC chains being sold online.
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mtbnut87
168 posts
#5Jun 19, 2021, 3:37 PM
zen_ wrote:
One thing for sure right now that anyone buying chains needs to look out for is the epidemic of counterfeit Shimano and KMC chains being sold online.

Hmmm... this isn't good. Is there any way to know if it's not legit? I just bought 2 Ultegra/XT chains for my bike and my wife's. They sound a little ragged after only 50 miles of gravel.... now I'm a little concerned. 😕
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mtbnut87
168 posts
#6Jun 19, 2021, 3:41 PM
Pipeliner wrote:
Anyone running a 36t cassette on a GRX 810 2x without issues?
I set my wife's bike up with an XT 11-42 and a GRX 810 and an Ultegra 2x front. Only modification was a Wolftooth DM link. I'm pretty sure that there's a guy on here who's running an 11-42 without it though (2x). That 810 has a lot of capacity. I can't imagine an 11-36 would be an issue.
1
stu
646 posts
#7Jun 19, 2021, 3:45 PM
mtbnut87 wrote:

Hmmm... this isn't good. Is there any way to know if it's not legit? I just bought 2 Ultegra/XT chains for my bike and my wife's. They sound a little ragged after only 50 miles of gravel.... now I'm a little concerned. 😕
Then you need some fake wax. 🙂

Seriously:
https://www.kmcchain.eu/Fake_chains_The_price_of_succes
https://bikingultimate.com/fake-vs-original-how-to-spot-fake-shimano-chain/

Of course I don't know if those articles are fake. I'd buy from a trusted source, preferably one which sells only bike parts.
2
zen_
110 posts
#8Jun 19, 2021, 3:47 PM
mtbnut87 wrote:

Hmmm... this isn't good. Is there any way to know if it's not legit? I just bought 2 Ultegra/XT chains for my bike and my wife's. They sound a little ragged after only 50 miles of gravel.... now I'm a little concerned. 😕

It can be pretty hard to know since they are so good at copying the likeness of products, but I would say if you paid $30-40 for a Dura-Ace or X11-EL chain, it's probably not genuine. I have seen copies of both of those while I was hunting for chains since the PC-1110 is basically not available now, although the PC-1130 is good too for just a few dollars more.
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mtbnut87
168 posts
#9Jun 19, 2021, 3:51 PM
I just read the article Stu posted. I think I'm good based on those criteria. Whew.... This was a pair of XT/Ultegra CN-HG701 and they were $59.99. I can't believe how expensive chains have gotten.
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EBG18T
53 posts
#10Jun 19, 2021, 5:38 PMedited
I’ve started using YBN SLA chains this year based on the zero friction AU article. Very pleasantly surprised, shift better than KmC and so far less stretch than Shimano (xt/ultegra). Not the cheapest, but nothing is cheap right now.

https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/product/11-speed-chain/
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pushstart
181 posts
#11Jun 21, 2021, 7:18 AMedited
I switched to YBN chains when I switched to hot wax based on Zero Friction saying that KMC were not recommended (I have also used KMC with hot wax and can't say they seem any worse waxed than others, but YBN are widely available).

I do not get 2k miles from an 11sp chain even with waxing regularly. I ride a fair bit of gravel, but it's probably 30-40% of my mileage. If I'm getting over 1k miles on a chain, I'd be surprised. That's with waxing every 200-300mi or so.

But waxed chains are so quiet and clean that I would never go back to drip lube even is chain life doesn't seem hugely improved.
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EBG18T
53 posts
#12Jun 21, 2021, 8:43 AM
pushstart wrote:I switched to YBN chains when I switched to hot wax based on Zero Friction saying that KMC were not recommended (I have also used KMC with hot wax and can't say they seem any worse waxed than others, but YBN are widely available).

I do not get 2k miles from an 11sp chain even with waxing regularly. I ride a fair bit of gravel, but it's probably 30-40% of my mileage. If I'm getting over 1k miles on a chain, I'd be surprised. That's with waxing every 200-300mi or so.

But waxed chains are so quiet and clean that I would never go back to drip lube even is chain life doesn't seem hugely improved.

I am at about 1500 miles on my YBN SLA11 and still under 0.5% stretch. My last KMC was at 0.5% at just under 1000 miles. ~80% of my miles are gravel and many days of getting caught in the rain/mud. I have been using FinishLine Ceramic wax lube, its been ok but I find it needs reapplication every 75 miles or so (much more often than advertised). I just received my bottle of WolfTooth WT1 which I will start trying to see how it compares. I have a feeling that the differences might just be manufacturing tolerance.
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Familyridz
70 posts
#13Jun 21, 2021, 9:21 AM
Issues with Ultegra chains at 50 miles sounds like something else is wrong or they are good fakes--especially if they are both making noise.

I opted for GRX 10 speed, because I'm towing my kid on a Burley tag-a-long bike using a steel gravel bike, and our combined weight with 2 frames, 3 wheels, a steel rack that the Burley connects to, pannier, 3+ large bottles, etc. is around 400lbs. I replaced the GRX 10 speed cassette with a Sunrace 11-40, and the original KMC chain on my bike with an Ultegra 10 speed chain that exactly used every link, and swapped a Wolftooth 10 speed Goatlink into the RD to ensure optimal chain wrap (exceeding RD design spec by cranking the B screw will work, but you will reduce chain wrap, and that will increase chain and cassette wear on as the same force is borne by fewer contact points). I went 10 speed because it was both much cheaper and easier to find a 2x GRX rig this way, and according to the Zinn master, 10 speed is a little more durable: https://www.velonews.com/gear/tech-faq-chain-width-explained-compatibility-queries-answered/ :

"The ends of the pins are practically flush with the faces of the outer link plates on 11-speed chains, leading to much more complex methods of chain joining to not have chain breakage. Chains “break” because the chain opens up when an outer link plate has been pried off of the end of a roller pin, usually when side-loaded by the front derailleur, generally while the rider is still pushing on the pedals. I don’t think I ever heard of this happening back in the 5-speed days when I started racing, but you certainly hear about it these days.

The other change with increasing cog count is that the thickness of the chain-link plates themselves (and any bowing of the plates, which at one time was a method used to improve shifting performance) has decreased. Some lateral slop may have been taken out of chains at the pin connections, too, but some of that is still required in order for a chain to shift quickly."

Because of the load, we're going slow, so time is a better measure, and I'd say this rig has 70-100 hours of pedaling at enough force to propel a 200lb rider at a pretty fast pace, so someone lighter would have gotten 2000 miles out of this set up with similar power applied for the same time. However, I'm kind to my FD & RD by never banging shifts without unloading the pedals while still spinning, and I'm pretty rigorous about derailleur alignment as soon as a noise appears. Our rides are relatively flat, but all have some short, steep hills where I'm using every gear inch and working hard, so it's been stress tested. Our miles are probably 75% road/ paved trail, but XT chains have been thrashed for years.

Shifting was immediately better than the original set up, even with the Wolftooth pushing the derailleur further away and losing the patented Shimano cogs, which I attribute to the Ultegra chain. It's shifting smooth, and not showing signs of wear.
mtbnut87
168 posts
#14Jun 21, 2021, 9:58 AM
Familyridz wrote:Issues with Ultegra chains at 50 miles sounds like something else is wrong or they are good fakes--especially if they are both making noise.

I always clean my new chains with brake cleaner to get that pasty grease they pack them in off... it's a dirt magnet. I'm thinking I did not get them properly lubed after that as I cleaned them thoroughly, relubed them and now they sound fine. Chalk this one up to the "loose nut behind the wheel". I hope. 😉
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Pipeliner
129 posts
#15Jun 21, 2021, 10:33 AM
I ordered a YBN chain because it’s the only one I could find in stock.

I’ve always replaced the cassette any time Ireplace a chain but with the price of cassettes nowadays I’m wondering if this is necessary? Any opinions on that?
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Familyridz
70 posts
#16Jun 21, 2021, 11:13 AM
If you check your chain regularly and replace it as soon as it stretches, you’ll save cassettes and chain rings. Get this tool if you don’t have it:

https://www.parktool.com/product/chain-wear-indicator-cc-3-2

As the Park Tool directions show, you have to replace 11 & 12 spd chains as soon as they start to go, but you can run a 10 a little longer.

Another way to reduce wear and an advantage of 2X is to shift your shifting habits on 2x. In the middle of the range, you can be small-smaller cog or big-bigger cog and be really close in gear inches. The latter option has a lot more teeth/links bearing the load at both ends.

If you have long stretches at similar grade where you tend to hit power cruise mode in one gear, that cog may wear more and in turn stretch your chain more. If you periodically gear down and spin more or if you have 2x and switch to the closest gear on the other chain ring periodically, you’ll reduce that wear pattern. If you are cranking hard on your smallest cog a lot, it may wear fastest as fewer teeth are engaged. When you put a new chain on feather the brake and turn the cranks slowly under pressure to see if the teeth on your small cogs are all making even contact with all the chain rollers, if not, those cogs or the whole cassette needs to go https://road.cc/content/feature/when-should-you-replace-your-chainrings-and-cassette-256420

Unless you really crank away on one cog (small cog on a 1x) would be a likely victim) the whole cassette should go, as the article says it’s really hard to visually inspect cogs. Another tell is if chain # 3 on a cassette stretched on much lower miles than chain #1, time for a new cassette before the chainrings go too.
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stu
646 posts
#17Jun 21, 2021, 12:38 PM
Familyridz wrote:Another way to reduce wear and an advantage of 2X is to shift your shifting habits on 2x. In the middle of the range, you can be small-smaller cog or big-bigger cog and be really close in gear inches. The latter option has a lot more teeth/links bearing the load at both ends.
Good point - I cringe every time I see someone riding with the small cog, small chainring combo.

I use the biggest chainrings and cogs which give me reasonable gear ratios as a way to reduce stress and wear in the drivertain. Right now one of my cassettes is 15-38, the other is 16-40, and the chainrings are 45-51. That's not enough top end for most folks but I don't ride fast, if I did I'd use a 13T or 14T small cog. I can't really use a lower gear ratio because I can't steer at super slow speeds but my compact crankset will accept rings down to 34 T.
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pushstart
181 posts
#18Jun 21, 2021, 1:21 PM
EBG18T wrote:

I am at about 1500 miles on my YBN SLA11 and still under 0.5% stretch. My last KMC was at 0.5% at just under 1000 miles. ~80% of my miles are gravel and many days of getting caught in the rain/mud. I have been using FinishLine Ceramic wax lube, its been ok but I find it needs reapplication every 75 miles or so (much more often than advertised). I just received my bottle of WolfTooth WT1 which I will start trying to see how it compares. I have a feeling that the differences might just be manufacturing tolerance.

I switched from the park tool.to the ProGold checker and I suspect I may be changing my chains too soon. I had assumed the 0-10 numbers were equivalent to the 0.5/0.75/1.0 measures on Park, but I realize now after a bit of research that this is % wear. So changing these by the time they hit "6" is likely too soon. I'll cross reference with Park Tool or a ruler next time. OTOH, my cassette is on chain #4 and showing little noticeable wear. 😀
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Familyridz
70 posts
#19Jun 21, 2021, 1:32 PM
Agreed. Just say no to cross chaining! I should have added, “chain angles being similar.” You obviously wouldn’t want to go from a straight line back from small chainring to an angle from the big one, but a lot of the time when we’re speeding up or slowing down, we do 8-9 shifts on the back before switching rings rather than 6-7.
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chas
1,305 posts
#20Jun 21, 2021, 1:51 PM
stu wrote:Good point - I cringe every time I see someone riding with the small cog, small chainring combo..

Just like I cringe when I see people hammering a 1x on the tiny cog. I've worn out too many cassettes in my day to depend on a tiny cog that much.
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