Would like to know what people who are following this think......If you haven't, Cinch racing was called out for using their men to help Lauren DeCrenzo win the women's fields in Unbound and gravel worlds. Apparently some are saying the men were her dedicated domestiques. Sheltering and pacing her. I've even heard that they stopped at aid stations and restocked while she rode on through, then caught back up to give her bottles. Unsurprisingly there are now outcries about the "spirit of gravel" etc..... Some are saying it's just because it's Tommy D's team (convicted doper) and that no one said anything when Lachlan Morton and Alex Howes worked together at DK 2019 (same team). Calls for men and women to race separately are being floated around now, no more mass starts.
I too am curious to read what folks here think of this controversy. My thoughts are that in the end, it really falls on the rider as she is the one who accepted the help and then stood on the podium. TD is a convicted doper and would appear to be somewhat fragile to be frank which was something that plagued him when he was still riding. He chose to post a rant that probably should not have been public and that wasn't very helpful. Aligning with TD clearly doesn't help the situation, but again, Lauren knew all of that going in when she chose to work with him so that choice is hers to own. I think the only path forward for Lauren is to leave the team and ride on her own. In her most recent interview, on Cyclingnews today, she claims she has done the work and her strength is what earned her the wins. If so, then riding on her own should continue the winning trend. She does acknowledge that TD is a good coach and has helped her progress.
Gravel is clearly at a crossroads and frankly, the idea of maintaining the "spirit" is going to be hard(impossible) to do. The sport has reached the point that big money is involved and I don't there is any going back. Some realistic rules will help but in the end it has gone professional. I laughed when I read an interview with Colin Strickland about keeping it fun/friendly with a picture of him wearing a RedBull hat and t-shirt in front of his Allied bike with Enve wheels. LOL. He even had the audacity to mention/compare the friendly world of crit racing! If you have ever participated in a crit race, friendly is probably the last word you'd use to describe it. I'm sure that had nothing to do with his having founded a crit series in Austin.
That said, does it really matter? In reality, there are just a handful of folks who really have a chance of winning so the vast majority are complaining about something that isn't relevant to them. If you think it does, I'd question the reasons why you are out there. It's about fun for 99.9% of folks; so keep it fun, race your buddies and be happy that you live somewhere where you can ride your bike for hours in the midst of Mother Nature.. At least now we can watch races live; that wouldn't have happened without the growth.
I think mixed fields -- men & women together -- is cool, but tangible help across the fields does violate the "spirit" of individual achievement. I think the difference between the Cinch claimed behavior and Morton & Howes is that when they were in a group, they took their pulls and worked with the group as individuals, not just with each other. There are lots of grey areas -- in a recent race that got down to a final group of 3, one of the podium finishers said something like "We're all friends, so we were happy to work together know that we'd all be on the podium together." Is that exclusionary?
The "spirit" issue seems to be "Did you win because you were the strongest/smartest rider?" Any OUTSIDE help that violates that is a violation of the "gravel spirit." But you're right, there's no way "spirit" alone can be an adequate guideline when there's money and prestige at stake.
Many top women have said that one of the ways to gain ground is to latch on to a group of faster riders -- usually men -- for as long as possible. That's rarely been an issue. Deliberately setting up teammates to pace you is seen as something completely different.
If it continues to be an issue, separate starts on the same course would seem like one way to minimize it.
I'd hate to ban all tangible help -- competitors sharing tubes, tools, etc. is nice to see -- but maybe not across divisions?
Even when there are no "teams" what we saw this year at the big events it seemed it was always Pete, Ted, Collin, Ian, Laurens, Peyson, and a few others agreeing at the front and working together basically as a team until the last few miles. Even with this new "Privateer" concept, these riders still need to win races if they want to keep their Red Bull hats and money. I was kind of excited to see what Trek with Kiel and Quin could do at Unbound this year if they worked together, but that became a moot point when Kiel broke his bike and Quin crashed and needed to go get stitches. Honestly, I think it would be cool if Quickstep brought over their classics squad for a few of these races.
Shaun wrote:Even when there are no "teams" what we saw this year at the big events it seemed it was always Pete, Ted, Collin, Ian, Laurens, Peyson, and a few others agreeing at the front and working together basically as a team until the last few miles.
Riding as a team, or as a break group trying to stay away from pursuers? I'd argue that the two are not the same.
Shaun wrote:Even when there are no "teams" what we saw this year at the big events it seemed it was always Pete, Ted, Collin, Ian, Laurens, Peyson, and a few others agreeing at the front and working together basically as a team until the last few mileHin Honestly, I Honestly, I think it would be cool if Quickstep brought over their classics squad for a few of these races.
+1; those guys are on another level and it would be apparent. Lidl has moved into the U.S. market so there is reason to hope.
I think the next phase will involve privateer teams. The physics of group riding just don't facilitate an individual rider being successful.
The physics of group riding just don't facilitate an individual rider being successful.
It is said that the love of money is the root of all evil. Money. Sponsorships. Fame. Money. I think this is what the gravel community is grieving. The death of their sport as they knew it.
I ran ultras back in the 90's and the same thing happened there. USATF descended upon it and it became the next new thing. It is what it is, but it, and gravel racing, will never be the same. And it's ok to shed a tear for the loss of pure and basic things.
I don't know the details, don't care, but it's a reminder that not dealing with racers and races is the greatest part of retiring from some positions and leadership in the bike and another outdoor sports community. From that experience I say nonsense to the post that it's all about money. When there's a high concentration of very competitive people, same for more chances of some poor behavior.
Some fat bike races prohibit drafting. You want a truly self supported race, do that and get rid of aid stations. I don't trust people who carry less than 3L of water anyways.
Tommy D is not the first person to do this; I recall a woman being paced to the win by her brother not that long ago. I don't think the practice is fair, but it's not banned. They should separate the fields by an hour and that will fix it.
bnystrom wrote:Tommy D is not the first person to do this; I recall a woman being paced to the win by her brother not that long ago. I don't think the practice is fair, but it's not banned. They should separate the fields by an hour and that will fix it.
If organizers ban drafting tactics all you will get is a bike packing race.
It’s simple, make a team and a mix team category and be done with it..
Eliud Kipchoge ran the fastest marathon time in Marathon history and is celebrated for it! he was paced by other runners, drafting a car and didn't stop at add station ( I think he had some special carbon soled running shoe as well) yet no one questions his time...yet here we are, people complaining that this woman didn't win fairly.. I don't get it!
Had the riders in front of her had any other jerseys on no one would have said squat about her drafting, and everyone would have calibrated her strength to hold a wheel.
Ultimately she is a beast! I don't care how much easier it is to ride in the draft it’s still incredibly hard work and I think she should be celebrated as one hell of an athlete! The only thing I think is even remotely shady (if I have the story correct).is the hand ups. Had they all stopped at the add station to get drink, I don't believe anyone would have made mention of the drafting or called out the win...
Really, one could say the leaders of the race are a "team". they make deals to stop at add stations, they all leave the add station when everyone is done and if one of the leaders runs out of water they all share what they have. The leaders all work together to get to the end faster and it isn't until the last 10 miles or 100 yards that a race actually happens (if they all stay together to that point) so really what's the difference.
I agree completely ...well said. Besides everyone is welcome to join every draft If you read the interview she did with I believe cycling news and take her at her word then nothing inappropriate with bottles happened and I agree she is a fantastic rider I did Unbound Gravel this year and I came upon a rider that was in need and I gave him some food. Later in the race I ran out of water and someone game me liquid from their extra bottle.....should that not have been allowed????...absurd if anyone has a problem with that Start everyone together and have fun
Pretty much everyone here making good rational points, unlike some of the social media. It seems inevitable there will have to be at least a few more basic rules. What those look like I guess will be up to the individual race organizers. Hope they don’t go too far. But change seems inevitable, Fields are getting huge now in some cases, and there is real money at stake, not just SBT purses, but decent livings off sponsorship. It doesn’t appear any rules were broken. Written ones, anyway. My biggest problem with all of it is the way she and her coach handled it. Basically they lied, and repeatedly, and both said snarky things about the other top women. Listen to the podcast on Velonews.
Perhaps what's needed is a separation between those riders who are there to compete for the win and those who simply want to enjoy the challenge of the ride. For racing, where there's money on the line, there needs to be rules, But for non-racers, let them do whatever they want (I suspect this is largely the case now). Lower entry fees for non-racers would be nice, too.
I kind of like racing with them in one big pack myself, but it may not be possible in every race for various reasons cited above. What I do want separation from is UCI and USA cycling, who are circling gravel like carrion birds trying to figure out how to move in for a meal since road racing is withering away.
thumper88 wrote: What I do want separation from is UCI and USA cycling, who are circling gravel like carrion birds trying to figure out how to move in for a meal since road racing is withering away.
In the words of Steven Tyler; Dream On. Those governing bodies have no choice but to get involved so brace yourself..
Again, the reality is that whatever rules are enacted will mostly affect those who are truly competing, so a very small % of folks.. A great % will bellyache though.
I think that we as a community need to continue to emphasize the fun issue; keep this about having fun and you will. Worry about what the .01 is doing and you'll lose the plot. Most folks I know do gravel events for fun; maybe to beat a buddy or whatever, but just for trash talking rights. Nothing wrong with that as long as it stays fun.
If you think this is bad, take a look at pee-wee football; no fun to be had there!
In the words of Steven Tyler; Dream On. Those governing bodies have no choice but to get involved so brace yourself..
Again, the reality is that whatever rules are enacted will mostly affect those who are truly competing, so a very small % of folks.. A great % will bellyache though.
I think that we as a community need to continue to emphasize the fun issue; keep this about having fun and you will. Worry about what the .01 is doing and you'll lose the plot. Most folks I know do gravel events for fun; maybe to beat a buddy or whatever, but just for trash talking rights. Nothing wrong with that as long as it stays fun.
If you think this is bad, take a look at pee-wee football; no fun to be had there!
Well, if the rules split the pack, that does affect me. It may not be huge, but there will be other things... And make no mistake UCI and USAC don’t want in just so they can bring sanity, or insanity to rules. They want to shake down the 3,000 entrants at SBT, and/or shake down SBT for fees. And Lifetime and the BWR organizers etc and jack up our entire fees and/or make people buy USAC memberships. I think it was 100 smackers or so I had to pay USAC this year to maintain a cat ranking I haven’t used in two years and barely have used in past 4-5 thanks to grave. Membership fee gets higher and higher because they don’t have members and dont have prob 1/4 the races they used to.
Elsewhere someone was warning UCI and USAC would try to bring errant race organizers into line by scheduling sanctioned events in the same increasingly rare time slots. Hope that’s just fear and they would not be soooo evil. And I can’t help but suspect it might be harder than they think to pry entrants away from the likes of those races. But they could horn in on some smaller events and wipe them out or force them to get sanctioned.
And no doubt a UCI worlds and USAC gravel nationals would draw pros and therefore others and be powerful tools
