Help a NEWBIE out- first gravel ride

41 replies · 965 views

TrailRunnah
30 posts
#1May 4, 2020, 11:55 AM
Haven’t been on a bike in about a year (used to do a fair amount of Mt biking). Mainly I run trails.

So, last Monday I ran in the mountains of NC and one of my running buddies Who is injured and can’t run biked the route with us (thank god he was there, b/c I forgot my hydration vest and food - so he was my mule and filtered me water).

Anyway - he had a blast riding with us. It was a 32 mile run with 3,700’ of elevation. He started selling me on the benefits of cross training on these gravel Mt roads.

So, I bought a gravel bike and man it was a dream on climbs and flats. But on steep descents on those rugged as hell gravel roads it beat my brains out! Like I had to ride the brakes (usually I bomb hills on a Mt bike). I would dust him on the climbs and he would drop me on the downhills like a hot potato. It was not having front suspension that killed me.

So - here is my question. Is this bike not meant for what I did? Is it intended more for long rolling rides and / or multi day trips. Any feedback appreciated.
Cheers
0
smoothmoose
210 posts
#2May 4, 2020, 2:13 PM▲ Top
That's a good bike - I tested that exact model and size too (51cm?).

I'm a MTB rider first and gravel rider second as well. DH is obviously going to feel more sketchy on a gravel bike compared to MTB. Overall, I'm pretty confident going DH on my gravel bike within reason. Here are few comments:
1. You're probably rusty. Being off the saddle for a year, I would feel tentative on on my full-suspension bike too.
2. Tire, tires, tires. The stock 700x36 tires are too skinny. My gravel bike came with 700x35 - which was OK, but more sketchy than modern gravel tires. I run 700x38 on road easy-nice gravel. But for true offroad singletrack I run 27.5 x 2.2. It's great to have bike that can clear big XC tires.
3. Brakes - if you have long descents - 5min+, I highly recommend full hydraulic disk brakes.
4. Dropper post - I like having one my gravel bike. Same benefits as MTB, plus added bonus on getting into a more aero position for road descents.
Am I telling you to upgrade? Maybe - get some of the cobwebs out first. Then look down the list of priority to upgrade.
3
TrailRunnah
30 posts
#3May 4, 2020, 2:22 PM
smoothmoose wrote:That's a good bike - I tested that exact model and size too (51cm?).

I'm a MTB rider first and gravel rider second as well. DH is obviously going to feel more sketchy on a gravel bike compared to MTB. Overall, I'm pretty confident going DH on my gravel bike within reason. Here are few comments:
1. You're probably rusty. Being off the saddle for a year, I would feel tentative on on my full-suspension bike too.
2. Tire, tires, tires. The stock 700x36 tires are too skinny. My gravel bike came with 700x35 - which was OK, but more sketchy than modern gravel tires. I run 700x38 on road easy-nice gravel. But for true offroad singletrack I run 27.5 x 2.2. It's great to have bike that can clear big XC tires.
3. Brakes - if you have long descents - 5min+, I highly recommend full hydraulic disk brakes.
4. Dropper post - I like having one my gravel bike. Same benefits as MTB, plus added bonus on getting into a more aero position for road descents.
Am I telling you to upgrade? Maybe - get some of the cobwebs out first. Then look down the list of priority to upgrade.
I don’t think its rust. I rode my full suspension on technical trails the next day and felt fine.

So, would tires make a huge difference in absorption? I never felt like the tires were going to slide out from under me. 100% of the dogging my brakes was b/c my brains were being scrambled.

Is this type of “gravel ride” typical with this kind of steep downhill? In other words, are most peeps gravel riding doing long rolling XC type rides??

The bike is super sweet other than shaking my fillings out on steep down grades. It’s a 54. I’m about to exchange it!
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smoothmoose
210 posts
#4May 4, 2020, 7:36 PMedited
TrailRunnah wrote:
So, would tires make a huge difference in absorption? I never felt like the tires were going to slide out from under me. 100% of the dogging my brakes was b/c my brains were being scrambled.

YES - is the short answer. 2"+ tires will soak up a lot more than 36mm tires. I run 22/25psi on my 2.2". While on the 700x38 I need to run 30/35psi.

Is this type of “gravel ride” typical with this kind of steep downhill? In other words, are most peeps gravel riding doing long rolling XC type rides??

Depends on folks. For me YES. I don't have a hardtail or XC MTB, so I hit everything on my gravel bike from road to XC singletrack.

The bike is super sweet other than shaking my fillings out on steep down grades. It’s a 54. I’m about to exchange it!

Are you exchanging size or getting a different bike?

Also one thing to also consider riding DH is your HAND POSITION. Were you riding on the hoods or the drops? DROPS are more stable, but you are in a very low position and you feel weight forward - that's why I like the dropper post, it can get you in a more comfortable body position. HOODS you can get you body in a better position - however it feels a lot more sketchy as you hands can easily bounce off with repeated bumps. You need to learn how to hook your pinky finger on the back side of the handles for stability - and with proper grip and hydraulic brakes, you can initiate 1 finger braking and feel much more in control.
1
TrailRunnah
30 posts
#5May 5, 2020, 7:34 AM
@smoothmoose. I was riding on the hoods, some on the drop but like you said it was super uncomfy and I couldn't really reach the brakes well without contorting my body (dropper post would have helped immensely with body position).

I'm entertaining exchanging for a hardtail with a really light frame, but not convinced to give up on this bike yet. Maybe the tires would do the trick.

I appreciate your insights.

I have some thinking to do on this.
0
Slim
300 posts
#6May 5, 2020, 8:59 AMedited
Exactly what @smoothmoose said:

You need to get in the drops on descents, especially if they are long and steep. Raise your handlebar a bit. With a high saddle, riding the drops requires a deep hip hinge. If you can’t/won’t do that, get a dropper post.

Here is a reply from bike skills trainer Lee Mc Cormack talking about that:

You need to drop your tire pressure way down, what were you running?
Unless it's sand, that requires a large enough tire. What is the biggest one that fits?

Personally, if you have a Full suspension mtb already, I would stick with a gravel bike, just maybe one that will fit 50mm or bigger tires, and a dropper, if this terrain is your normal riding area.
I say that, because I figure, if you have multiple bikes, it’s best to have them further apart on the spectrum.

Beautiful out there though! Look at that creek!
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abcspjbjd
39 posts
#7May 5, 2020, 10:28 AM
I'd recommend at least a size 40 tire which will allow lower air pressure. Also, to ease some of the harshness of the gravel, check out the redshift stem which has elastomers you can change depending on how much "suspension" you want.
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Skldmark
164 posts
#8May 5, 2020, 11:28 AM
TrailRunnah wrote:@smoothmoose. I was riding on the hoods, some on the drop but like you said it was super uncomfy and I couldn't really reach the brakes well without contorting my body
I have some thinking to do on this.
I think reach to the brakelevers is key to any “rowdy” riding on any drop-bar bike (gravel,road,cross). I think this is a matter of fit (bar shape, stem length/height) needed on any new bike. In addition, I bring the brake levers closer to the bar as needed (limit screw or thicker rubberbumper-stop).
1
TrailRunnah
30 posts
#9May 5, 2020, 12:52 PM
@abcspjbjd That stem is really cool. Never heard of it.

@Slim. Agree on adding the gravel bike with these mods mentioned here vs getting a hard tail b/c yes the two are too similar.
I actually just returned the gravel bike and I'm going to hunt for a used one so I can then do all these mods to it and make it suited for this terrain.

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Slim
300 posts
#10May 5, 2020, 1:07 PM
TrailRunnah wrote:@abcspjbjd That stem is really cool. Never heard of it.

It's been reviewed here on the site. https://www.ridinggravel.com/reviews-2/redshift-sports-shockstop-stem-getting-rolling/

TrailRunnah wrote:
@Slim. Agree on adding the gravel bike with these mods mentioned here vs getting a hard tail b/c yes the two are too similar.
I actually just returned the gravel bike and I'm going to hunt for a used one so I can then do all these mods to it and make it suited for this terrain.

In that case, I say look for something that will fit 50mm, or 55mm(2.2") tires. It is more likely that you can find that tire clearance with 650b (27.5) wheel size. You can always go back to a narrower tire if you want.
Also note that most frames list a single max tire size, which normally applies to the rear. The front can often take a bit bigger, especially if using 650b.

And then, as @Skldmark mentions, make sure to set up the bar and brakes correctly, so you can reach them easily from the drops. (I am a bike fitter, and very few of my clients have this dialed out of the box)
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TrailRunnah
30 posts
#11May 5, 2020, 1:17 PM
Slim wrote:

And then, as @Skldmark mentions, make sure to set up the bar and brakes correctly, so you can reach them easily from the drops. (I am a bike fitter, and very few of my clients have this dialed out of the box)

You guys have been really great at helping me navigate what I think will work for this terrain. I admit that I am a bit disappointed that the shop did not offer to fit me when I bought the bike there. I know we are under adverse conditions right now, but I think that would have helped me immensely.
0
Skldmark
164 posts
#12May 5, 2020, 1:46 PM
@@TrailRunnah, FWIW, in your photo of the bike it looks to be setup perfectly for an out-of-the-box bike, The ‘fit’ some of us are talking about has taken us much time/effort to achieve, It is a process. Like running, the lessons keep coming and you get technically better and better- then you’re old.
1
Slim
300 posts
#13May 5, 2020, 1:53 PMedited
TrailRunnah wrote:
I admit that I am a bit disappointed that the shop did not offer to fit me when I bought the bike there. I know we are under adverse conditions right now, but I think that would have helped me immensely.

No bike shop that I know of, offers a free bike fit with a new bike purchase. A bikefit is typically a 2-4 hour process, costing ~$200-$400.

What a good bike shop should do, is offer you a ‘bike sizing’, where they evaluate your size and get you on the correct size frame, and adjust the saddle height for you, as well as sometimes a tweak to the handlebar position.
Unless you have some uncommon physical issues, this means you end up with a bike that is right size frame for you. From there, a trained Bikefitter can work with you and your bike to dial in a true, comprehensive, bikefit.

My process for myself usually goes like this:
Set up bike in previously know good position.
Go ride.
Tweak saddle position and bar position.
Take bike in shop, strip bars, adjust brake levers, add padding where I want it, retake.

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chas
1,305 posts
#14May 5, 2020, 3:46 PM
Rather sounds like you would be well off on a XC hard tail.
Above suggestions are spot on.
Question really is, do you need suspension on these downhills? Mountain bikes are longer/lower/slacker. That plus larger tires, wider handlebars, and suspension make a difference. Generally gravel bikes are not the best tool for rough fast downhills (but can be great for smoother flowing downhills).
I’ve been mountain biking about as long as Gary Fischer, so I’m used to blowing down hills on old school geometry and 45mm mountain bike tires. Its all about picking the right line, getting in the flow, and letting the bike move underneath me – being a very active rider.
For you:
Bigger tires are key. 40mm is minimum, but I can fit a 54mm tire on the front of my bike and run it in the low 20’s psi so its not a lot different from running a rigid mountain bike. Makes a HUGE difference (as I’m sure a redshift stem would)
If downhill is key, look for a bike with long, low slack geometry (as opposed to a gravel bike with roadie geometry)
Wide handlebars can make a difference – consider some wide bars with a good amount of flair.
A gravel bike will never compete with a hard tail on terrain where you need a suspension (or, you can look at something like the Cannondale slate…).
I’m blessed that my gravel bike has a compliant rear end, but before this bike I would swear by a thudbuster or similar seat post shock if the going was rough. Its like making my rear tire 2” bigger (with the corresponding drop in pressure). I love me a good compliant/absorbent seat post (Currently using Canyon/Ergon seatpost).
1
TrailRunnah
30 posts
#15May 5, 2020, 5:33 PM
Slim wrote:

No bike shop that I know of, offers a free bike fit with a new bike purchase. A bikefit is typically a 2-4 hour process, costing ~$200-$400.

What a good bike shop should do, is offer you a ‘bike sizing’, where they evaluate your size and get you on the correct size frame, and adjust the saddle height for you, as well as sometimes a tweak to the handlebar position.
Unless you have some uncommon physical issues, this means you end up with a bike that is right size frame for you. From there, a trained Bikefitter can work with you and your bike to dial in a true, comprehensive, bikefit.

My process for myself usually goes like this:
Set up bike in previously know good position.
Go ride.
Tweak saddle position and bar position.
Take bike in shop, strip bars, adjust brake levers, add padding where I want it, retake.

Well, I’m learning. I had no idea a bike fit took that long!
0
TrailRunnah
30 posts
#16May 5, 2020, 5:44 PM
chas wrote:
Rather sounds like you would be well off on a XC hard tail.

Herein lies the conundrum. I think the terrain I’m on is unique and my reasons for being there are unique too. I’m very literal and when I heard “Gravel Bike” I was thinking a bike that could handle the roughness of these mountain roads, but that isn’t what I think most folks use them for.

The perfect bike would breeze through the flats and slight down hills, and climb like that gravel bike did. Then hammer the down hills with stability and sure footedness like the mountain bike did.

Maybe a really light Mt bike with extra ring(s) for increased speed on the flats and gentle downhills with slimmer tires is the ticket.
OR
That gravel bike with fatter tires, drop seat and that cool stem would be the perfect bike.
0
Zurichman
1,526 posts
#17May 5, 2020, 6:46 PM
chas wrote:
Rather sounds like you would be well off on a XC hard tail.
Above suggestions are spot on.
Question really is, do you need suspension on these downhills? Mountain bikes are longer/lower/slacker. That plus larger tires, wider handlebars, and suspension make a difference. Generally gravel bikes are not the best tool for rough fast downhills (but can be great for smoother flowing downhills).
I’ve been mountain biking about as long as Gary Fischer, so I’m used to blowing down hills on old school geometry and 45mm mountain bike tires. Its all about picking the right line, getting in the flow, and letting the bike move underneath me – being a very active rider.
For you:
Bigger tires are key. 40mm is minimum, but I can fit a 54mm tire on the front of my bike and run it in the low 20’s psi so its not a lot different from running a rigid mountain bike. Makes a HUGE difference (as I’m sure a redshift stem would)
If downhill is key, look for a bike with long, low slack geometry (as opposed to a gravel bike with roadie geometry)
Wide handlebars can make a difference – consider some wide bars with a good amount of flair.
A gravel bike will never compete with a hard tail on terrain where you need a suspension (or, you can look at something like the Cannondale slate…).
I’m blessed that my gravel bike has a compliant rear end, but before this bike I would swear by a thudbuster or similar seat post shock if the going was rough. Its like making my rear tire 2” bigger (with the corresponding drop in pressure). I love me a good compliant/absorbent seat post (Currently using Canyon/Ergon seatpost).

Chas since you know a lot more about bikes than me I have this ? and not to hijack his post. I am really satisfied with my Roker Comp now as my gravel race bike. I am retiring in 1-2 years and want to buy a retirement bike. I am looking for a bike that will handle some single track or nastier courses than my Roker is probably good for. I am probably willing to spend. $4000 - $5000 or $5000 - $6000. Somebody suggested the Specialized Epic Expert as that she said is what most folks ride the Leadville 100 on. I know Niner has some stuff out there and also have hear of Marin. I looked up the Specialized bike and it list weight is 24.5 lbs. I am not going to buy a bike that heavy. Is there a bike like I am looking for in the 18-20 lb range and I know nothing between the difference in a hard tail and a bike that has a shock. Any suggestions would be welcome so I can do some reviews. Now or maybe next time this year would be probably a nice time to buy a last years leftover bike.

Thanks
Zman
smoothmoose
210 posts
#18May 5, 2020, 8:13 PM
TrailRunnah wrote:

Herein lies the conundrum. I think the terrain I’m on is unique and my reasons for being there are unique too. I’m very literal and when I heard “Gravel Bike” I was thinking a bike that could handle the roughness of these mountain roads, but that isn’t what I think most folks use them for.

The perfect bike would breeze through the flats and slight down hills, and climb like that gravel bike did. Then hammer the down hills with stability and sure footedness like the mountain bike did.

Maybe a really light Mt bike with extra ring(s) for increased speed on the flats and gentle go with slimmer tires is the ticket.
OR
That gravel bike with fatter tires, drop seat and that cool stem would be the perfect bike.

It's hard to tell what your riding conditions are and how it may map into your ride fantasy. I haven't ridden in NC, but hear good things about Pisgah.

For me my FS MTB handles everything from technical trail riding to DH bike parks and my gravel bike needs to handling everything else including road riding - albeit I have 2 wheelsets to extend its versatility. I commute with my gravel bike, but I also ride hilly terrain, fireroads, and singletrack in California that I may find to be too "mellow" or "boring" on my MTB. Gravel bike increases the "challenge" of otherwise easy green/blue trails. Not sure if that's what your looking for.

I think the other decision point is whether you want to use dropbars or not. I prefer dropbars on the flats and roadie conditions. And as I noted in my previous post you can make them work even in technical conditions. You just need to learn the technique and as others noted get a good fit and adjust the reach of your brake lever, etc - which takes more time and effort on a dropbar bike. I recently switched saddles and to flat pedals and am once again tweaking my fit.

As a pointer - here's a pic on how to do the hooked pinkie for better grip and stability on the hoods. Once I learned this technique my DH confidence went up exponentially. I descend on technical terrain about 50/50 between hoods and drops as I feel stable in either position. Many times the hoods is preferred in rolling but steep terrain as I don't have time to move my hands down to the drops.

0
Slim
300 posts
#19May 5, 2020, 10:03 PMedited
Shammy Hagar?

https://granfondo-cycling.com/evil-chamois-hagar-review/
https://granfondo-cycling.com/evil-chamois-hagar-review/
1
TrailRunnah
30 posts
#20May 6, 2020, 7:56 AM
@smoothmoose Thanks for posting that photo - I did use the same position as your pic and that was the best. (Wish I'd figured it out earlier in the ride). some of the jarring was still so great my hands came off the bars, but less air and a wider tire would have made that doable, I think. I did not have the luxury of adjusting or making the fit better. That would help immensely.

Well put! "Map into your ride fantasy"

I'm having a lot of remorse having returned that bike. I'm contemplating calling them back and having them mount wider tires on it, reducing air pressure and maybe even getting that stem if I still need it. I think bike adjustment, and the previous mods will make this bike handle this terrain - I just wish I had one with this set up to try first.

Pisgah is beautiful (I've seen much of it from running and hiking and hope to see more from a bike saddle). You should make a trip out in the Fall or Spring.
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