Reynolds steel. 520 vs 631 vs 853

Hello all, 

I am looking into a steel gravel bike. I like the Jamis Renegade. I know their low end one is 520 and higher end is the 631. Niner also makes a steel with 853. How much of a difference does this make if feel and ride quality? I know the higher end stuff is slightly lighter, but what about feel? 

Thanks

I test rode the Renegade Expat and bought the Exploit for a few reasons.   I can’t directly conclude that the more premium steel rides better or not.  The carbon fork of the Exploit might be a bigger factor?

In any case I’m very happy with the Renegade Exploit.  Night and day difference in comfort due to reducing vibration over my old AL road bike.   Bigger tires probably are a significant factor also.

All steels have essentially the same stiffness, so differences in ride feel will come down to the dimensions of the tubes. An 853 bike using the same tube sizes and wall thicknesses as 520 bike will be almost identical in weight and stiffness.

You can make a stronger alloy into a thinner tube however, so that allows you to do two things:

You can make a tube with the same outer diameter, but with thinner walls. This tube will be lighter (less material) and slightly more flexible.

You can make a thinner tube but with a larger outer diameter. This tube would weigh about the same (same amount of material) but would much stiffer.

So if your definition of ride quality is based on "stiffness", the fancier tubing lets you build a much stiffer bike at a given weight. If it's based on "suppleness", the fancy tubing will build a lighter frame at a given stiffness (or lack thereof).

To get these gains, you have to go to thinner wall thicknesses. Some production brands won't use the thinner tubing because it's more expensive to weld and would have a higher warranty rate. So just because a bike has an 853 sticker doesn't mean it's using the thin versions of the tubing. On some frames it's the same thick tubing used on the cheaper models. Since the tubing is stronger, that does mean the frame would be harder to bend in a bad crash, so it's not that the gains are lost, they just won't make an appreciable difference in ride quality.

This is also further complicated when a bike advertised as '853' only means the three main tubes are 853, while the other tubes on the bike may be the same tubing as used on lower models. This would make any ride differences less significant.

They are all good.   One company was going to do a gravel bike out of 853, and the tubing manufacturer convinced them the bike would be too stiff, and to use a different grade of steel.

Generally the lower grade steels (below 500 series) are used to make thick tubed and heavy bikes without a lot of finesse in frame making.  If someone chooses to use 500 and up, they generally are putting some thought into making a good steel frame. 

chas wrote:the tubing manufacturer convinced them the bike would be too stiff
 

Sorry, there's no conceivable situation where this is actually the case. In fact, the high-strength steels are the key to building the most flexible frames possible.

Thanks for the details.    I’ve got a material science background in composites but steel was never my area of study.

I aim for a more supple riding experience.   That definitely improved with my steel framed Jamis Renegade and fatter, lower pressure tires.    I don’t think I will EVER go back to Aluminium frames!

drwelby wrote:All steels have essentially the same stiffness, so differences in ride feel will come down to the dimensions of the tubes. An 853 bike using the same tube sizes and wall thicknesses as 520 bike will be almost identical in weight and stiffness.

You can make a stronger alloy into a thinner tube however, so that allows you to do two things:

You can make a tube with the same outer diameter, but with thinner walls. This tube will be lighter (less material) and slightly more flexible.

You can make a thinner tube but with a larger outer diameter. This tube would weigh about the same (same amount of material) but would much stiffer.

So if your definition of ride quality is based on "stiffness", the fancier tubing lets you build a much stiffer bike at a given weight. If it's based on "suppleness", the fancy tubing will build a lighter frame at a given stiffness (or lack thereof).

To get these gains, you have to go to thinner wall thicknesses. Some production brands won't use the thinner tubing because it's more expensive to weld and would have a higher warranty rate. So just because a bike has an 853 sticker doesn't mean it's using the thin versions of the tubing. On some frames it's the same thick tubing used on the cheaper models. Since the tubing is stronger, that does mean the frame would be harder to bend in a bad crash, so it's not that the gains are lost, they just won't make an appreciable difference in ride quality.

This is also further complicated when a bike advertised as '853' only means the three main tubes are 853, while the other tubes on the bike may be the same tubing as used on lower models. This would make any ride differences less significant.

drwelby wrote:

Sorry, there's no conceivable situation where this is actually the case. In fact, the high-strength steels are the key to building the most flexible frames possible.

Pretty sure it was Raleigh who said this when they were working on the Tamland prototypes.

Yes Reynolds did suggest the 631 tubing over 853 for the Tamland as reported in this review: http://ridinggravel.com/gravel-news/raleigh-tamland-two-reviewed/
I test rode the Tamland and Exploit bikes in 2017. Both 631 steel and liked them both. I went with the Exploit because it felt a bit more lively, has hydraulic brakes, and a Ritchey cockpit which I like. The specs have changed (Exploit is now a 1x) but the 631 frames are still the same.

pauley wrote:Yes Reynolds did suggest the 631 tubing over 853 for the Tamland as reported in this review: http://ridinggravel.com/gravel-news/raleigh-tamland-two-reviewed/
I test rode the Tamland and Exploit bikes in 2017. Both 631 steel and liked them both. I went with the Exploit because it felt a bit more lively, has hydraulic brakes, and a Ritchey cockpit which I like. The specs have changed (Exploit is now a 1x) but the 631 frames are still the same.

love the 1x11 on my Renegade Exploit.   Wish the crank ring was 36T instead of 40T for the really big hills but that’s it.  

Toadmeister, I would not dismiss all aluminum frames. If used smartly, the material can build an excellent frame. Case in point: this past weekend I was on a borrowed 20-year old bike with an aluminum frame, and it rode as well as my Reynolds 853 steel-framed bike. 

Koyote wrote:Toadmeister, I would not dismiss all aluminum frames. If used smartly, the material can build an excellent frame. Case in point: this past weekend I was on a borrowed 20-year old bike with an aluminum frame, and it rode as well as my Reynolds 853 steel-framed bike. 

I still enjoy my Aluminium frame fat tire bike but my 4.8” tubeless tires are running at a low pressure under 10psi usually.

I'm a big guy at 6’4” 255# and have some neck & pinched nerve issues.  I ride big XL frames 61 or 62cm.  Not sure AL frame bike stiffness scales up well as it might for someone in a small to large frame.

Koyote wrote:Toadmeister, I would not dismiss all aluminum frames. If used smartly, the material can build an excellent frame. Case in point: this past weekend I was on a borrowed 20-year old bike with an aluminum frame, and it rode as well as my Reynolds 853 steel-framed bike. 

That is because you were not on 631 tubing, LOL!

Seriously though, I've heard good things about good hydroformed Aluminum.  Salsa states that their Gen 3 Aluminum Warbird was more compliant than their Gen 2 Titanium frame.  

I guess I should find some to ride to test out the theory.  

Toadmeister....we have a steel tandem, and an aluminium tandem, along with an aluminium Crux, and carbon Boone, and ride every one of them  on gravel. Out of all of them, that big ol aluminium tandem gives the smoothest magic carpet ride....and I think it's the wheels we're running that is the biggest difference maker.

That and the long wheelbase!!!

if you want comfort go for 650b 47mm+, frame material matters very little once you got those bad boys on them